My chat with Clive is divided into 2 parts. In part 1 we discuss animal cognition and his academic background, which gives him such a  refreshingly balanced perspective on things. Always knew Clive was a deep thinker, but did not appreciate he was so aware of some of the other methods for evaluating biological phenomena that cannot be so easily reduced to physical entities.  fascinating chat. 

#petbehaviourodysseys, #whatmakesyouclick #PBO